New ideas for my map.

I have decided to put aside researching the Mentinah Archives for now and concentrate more on my map of Nephite migrations until I can get more information on them. The Archives gave me some new ideas on how and where the Nephites settled in the United States. I forgot about the Anasazi ruins and numerous artifacts found in Utah that suggests an advanced culture lived there. So, I adjusted my map to reflect on these discoveries. You can view it here.

I believe one of the reasons why there would be two locations for Nephite settlements is that God wanted to re-establish His Church and His people on this land. There is only two general areas that can support large populations–the lands east of the Mississippi river and the lands west of the Rocky Mountains including the west coast. In Alma 63:4,5, there are two groups that went into the lands northward. One was a company of 5400 families. I believe they settled in the southwest. The other group is Hagoth’s ships. The scripture says he travel in the west sea by a narrow neck of land. There is only one place where he could have done this from Zarahemla and that is the northern coast of Mexico. There is an archaeological site that was discovered on the north end of Lake Mead that dates to around the first century that is called the Lost City. I have also read that there were many other sites in the Grand Canyon area that was destroyed by Lake Meade. Could it be possible that Hagoth traveled up the Colorado River as suggested in the Book of Hagoth in the Archives and started colonies there? Then after he did this would travel across the Pacific to settle the south sea islands. (The Book of Hagoth says that he had a son named Hagoth who left before his father did and became lost during a storm and landed on a group of islands.) Most migrations takes place along rivers where there is plenty of water and food. There might be other ruins in the lower Colorado river area that date to this time. I found this site that also suggests that Nephites settled in the Utah mountains. This site is the best I have seen so far of a gallery of photographs that suggests a high level of technology in Utah. Metal plates, swords and stone boxes. These were all used by the Nephites. The Utah valleys would be an excellent place to store records and give protection to the people. A part of my theory on why the Nephites migrated north was to escape the wars and the corruption of the Church in Zarahemla. From the time Lehi settled in South America the Nephites were being pushed north by the Lamanites. They would settle in an area for a while then become over run by Lamanites and corruption in the Church and then a small group of righteous Nephites would leave and start new. According to the Book of Mormon the Nephites in Zarahemla were becoming a very corrupt and evil nation just before the coming of Christ. So, I believe that God wanted to preserve the Church and records and sent groups of righteous Nephites into the lands north into the United States. What better place for protection than in the mountains of Utah where they could be naturally protected on three sides. By using Hagoth’s ships a colony could be set up quicker than overland routes. I believe that God wanted the east coast to be settled also in case the mountain colony would become corrupted and the Church and records could be again saved from destruction. It says in Alma 63 that copies of the records were sent to all the cities except where Alma was commanded not to send them. So, there would be libraries of records found throughout the United States and Central America and Joseph Smith may have been allowed to see one of these to return the Mormon Plates in upstate New York. The grasslands between the Mississippi and the Rocky Mountains is a great barrier between the two colonies that would discourage large scale wars to happen.

This is the basics of my theory on the Book of Mormon geography. It’s all speculation, I know, but I believe this to be closest to what the Book of Mormon teaches us about the Nephite Nation. This is a fun and challenging project for me and I hope I can inspire someone to take a closer look into my ideas and do a better researched article on this subject. More to come…


18 thoughts on “New ideas for my map.

  1. brooksrobinson

    One thing you forgot…There is no archaeological evidence to suggest the idea that Natives living in America, came from the Ancient Middle East, much less traded or communicated with the Middle East. Not to mention the whole Mongoloid factor of the Natives, while Hebrews are Caucasian, genetically speaking that is.

  2. uft36 Post author

    Hi, Brooks!
    There is plenty of archaeological evidence for Old World contact. Please visit this site for photographic evidence.
    I have come across old texts from the 1800’s that talks about what the farmers in the New England area have found including Egyptian-style writing. Maybe some one faked all these reports in some grand conspiracy to promote the LDS Church? These books were published in the early 1800’s when printing was very expensive. And what about the Decalogue Stone in New Mexico with Hebrew writing? Of course, someone with a lot of time could have traveled to a very remote and difficult place just to create a place like this to promote the idea of Hebrews in North America. I haven’t looked into the genetics too much yet but after 2000 years of mixing I don’t believe there is much to prove Hebrews were here. I have done a lot of research into this area and, yes, some things can be explained away into nothingness but what if these claims are true? And why is it so impossible for people in the Old World to come here? Just because the “experts” so say? They have had over two thousand years to perfect ships for ocean voyages and to develop a higher level of technology. It all comes down to what you are willing to accept and believe. It took many years to prove certain information in the Bible and it wasn’t until the Dead Sea scrolls that proved that some books of the Bible are authentic. And yet people accept the Bible without question as a real history of the Hebrews and Christians. I have read about Native American traditions that talk about their ancestors coming from the lands both across the west sea and from the east. Are these fabricated also in some grand conspiracy to promote Old World contact? The Native American people has have enough trouble trusting the white man with their knowledge and customs why would they fabricate these stories, also? I can go on but do some research like I have and you will see that there is enough evidence to support Old world contact.

  3. brooksrobinson

    I have already looked at the link you provided me the other day. This does not surprise me, on the findings of this site that is. As I glanced through the photos, and the sources, it became obviously clear to me. These sources [minus one] were all Mormon biased sources. So of course your going to get this interpretations of various items that were clearly not found in North America. I’ve taken more history/geography courses then I have fingers, there is no evidence for a cultural diffusion from the Ancient Middle East. Its interesting to note that Thomas Stuart Ferguson’s paper written in 1975(Ferguson was the founder of the Dept. of Archeology at BYU), who after spending 25years researching the BoM found absolutely nothing. He thus called the geography of the BoM “fictional” (Ferguson’s Manuscript Unveiled). Rather then answer all your points here, I will write a blog discussing this subject so stay tuned.

  4. uft36 Post author

    It would be pointless to debate over this topic since I chose to believe in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and you refuse to accept any Book of Mormon claims. All these same arguments could be applied to the Bible as well. Prove to me archaeologically that Jesus Christ started a Church in Israel and all the apostles were true people supporting his Church. Prove to me that John the Baptist was indeed a real person with a ministry. Prove to me historically and archaeologically that Jesus Christ was here on earth or that the flood happened exactly the way the Bible says. All the books written in the New Testament were written after Jesus Christ and His apostles was here. How do you know without a doubt that the King James version or any other version was accurately translated from original texts? You chose to believe and accept it for what it is- a body of work inspired by God with lessons that could be applied in your life. The authenticity of the Book of Mormon is debatable and could be argued for and against until the end of time but what about the lessons taught in the Book of Mormon? Is what it teaches questionable? Is the gospel of Jesus Christ the central theme in this book? And what about all the other lessons that could be learned from it? I am doing this project as a challenge to me. To learn about the history of the New World and to learn more about the Native American history. I have said in my blog that all this is just speculation and theories and not to be accepted as what the Church teaches or as actual history. One more thing. Why is it so impossible to believe that God will not re-establish His Church during this time? And if it is not the LDS Church how would you recognize His true Church on this earth when it does arrive? What will be the signs to know what it is? Don’t lump me in with other apologetic Mormons defending his faith. I have been a Catholic, a born-again Christian and now a member of the LDS Church. I never grew up in a all member neighborhood so I never had that kind of exposure to influence me. The first year I was a member I could not go the Church very often because I had to work on Sundays in a hotel in a national park. I had to figure out everything on my own what is right or wrong. The experiences I have had are very real and personal to me. I have spent a lot of years looking for the Church that Christ established and I have found it. The LDS Church as all the elements that is described in the Bible of what Christ’s Church is supposed to be. No one brainwashed me into believing what I believe. The missionaries asked me a question, I answered it, and then looked it up in the Book of Mormon and their literature and most of the time I was right. It was as if I was prepared before hand to accept the Church in my life. It hasn’t been easy. I have had my low points like anyone else but I still believe this is the true Church of Christ. And nothing you can do or say will change what I believe. So, blog away and point out all my faulty logic on this subject and maybe you can convince others just how inept this Mormon is and how he is weak in his claims are. I really don’t care either way.

  5. brooksrobinson

    I refuse Mormon claims because they are false. No claim of the Mormon church can be backed up historically. The BoM does not resemble Hebrew literature, and many of its words are not found in the Hebrew language, but the Greek language, which would be unknown to Hebrews of 500BC(many of these words ironically are found in the New Testament, which J.S. would have access to). The Bible can be backed up by non-Christian scholars, as it has many times. Many events of the Bible are recorded by non-Jewish historians of antiquity(including the Flood in the Tale of Gilgamesh), and events of the New Testament can be backed up by both Roman and Non-Christian Jewish writings of that era. The Church of Christ is here, and it has been since the disciples, as ordered by Christ, began to proclaim the Gospel to the world. If you want to believe a book that has has gone through many changes since 1830, in which 3900 items have been changed (not including grammar), and no original, or ancient copies have been found, over a book that we have roughly 27000 copies of copies of copies, spread through out many different lands that surround Israel. Proving that what we have now, in the NKJV, NAS, ESV, and NIV Bibles to be more accurate then any other book coming from antiquity, that is on you. As far as Jesus is concerned the BoM preaches a different Jesus, then that of the Bible, as the Mormon Prophet Hinkley stated,”The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak”(Gordon Hinkley 1998). One should be careful to put faith in something of weak claims and no historical backing. With you I leave Galatians 1:6-8 “marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

  6. uft36 Post author

    So be it then. I shall be accursed for what I believe in and stand before God to account for my actions. But I will never be accused of condemning one’s faith because I do not agree with it. That judgment is left for God only and only He can determine whether you are worthy to enter His kingdom. No amount of scriptural references will convince me otherwise of what I chose to believe in. That is left to the Holy Spirit to witness to me what is right or wrong concerning the Gospel and God. I have actually prayed and received an answer to everything I believe in concerning the LDS Church and I am working on understanding the deeper truths of the Gospel. Jesus Christ was condemned for what He believed in spite of all the miracles He did and teaching the people what He believed. What right does anyone have to condemn another’s faith? Or try to prove another faith is wrong? Instead of wasting your time trying to convince people why the LDS Church is false instead promote your faith in Christ. You would be blessed more for your efforts.

  7. brooksrobinson

    My faith in Christ is why I have created my blog. My blog is to of Christ, by promoting Christian discussion and ideals for other Christians to dwell on. B. Challenge those who pollute the gospel, with idea’s of a false Christ. and C. To reveal that Christianity isn’t solely based off of some blind leap of faith, but has more historical backing then any other ancient book. This is my “testimony” and my “witness”, and this testimony is also shares common theme of the New Testament writers who went out ” to prove other faiths wrong,” and to battle those who dare trample on God’s message. You should ask yourself, is this truly the Holy Spirit talking to me, and try to seek an answer from the Bible, and not the BoM. I once worked at a place that I truly hated. The pay was good and steady though,taking care of my needs. A friend of mine made me a job offer that promised less stress and more pay. I thought about it for a few days, it felt very much like the right thing to do, and therefore something I couldn’t refuse. I worked there for 3weeks and it seemed to be an answer to the “good” feeling I had about the job. I already made more then I was before, and the stress was 10times less then the previous job. That all changed when I came in to work my shift, and I was told that the company is closing its doors in this location, there was no warning, only promises of good things up until that moment. This clearly was not the right thing to do despite its right feelings during my employment, and before as I dwelled upon this offer. The Bible declares in Jeremiah 17:9 and in Proverbs 28:26, the heart is not to be trusted and is corrupt. The Holy Spirit confirms what I believe in every day as I examine the Scriptures and its truth is revealed. It is again confirmed when I read my various sources and findings that support the truth of what the Bible said historically. “No amount of scriptural references will convince me otherwise of what I chose to believe in.” Then the Holy Spirit is not in this. The Scriptures are all God breathed words, and the Holy Spirit is what inspired the men, who wrote the Bible on what to say. If one goes against the Scriptures and believes a doctrine not supported by the Scriptures then one is not being led by the Holy Spirit, but their own heart.

  8. brooksrobinson

    It’s also interesting for you to state “What right does anyone have to condemn another’s faith? Or try to prove another faith is wrong?” The BoM condemns the Christianity that is in the New World, as the Christianity from the Anti-Christ. Also Mormon missionaries go out in droves to prove others wrong, and will have no issues debating Traditional Christians over doctrines of the Bible trying to prove their religion is the right one and the Traditional Christian as the wrong one. It’s also worth noting the Joseph Smith continuously attacked Christians of his day in his sermons.

  9. uft36 Post author

    Should we get into the history of Christianity since Christ? Over 1000 years of enslaving and torturing people all in the name of Christ. Wars fought in the name of Christ because of racial differences. Extermination orders on Mormons in a land of religious freedom. Imprisoning men and women for believing differently than the establish faith of the land in the name of Christ. Public scandals of Christian ministers who proclaim they are true Christians. Is this the Church that Christ taught and established? The LDS Church has its share of scandals and problems since the beginning but it took less than 100 years to settle down and become a Christ-like Church. The LDS Church has paid a price and still is paying the price for it’s mistakes made in the past but I don’t know of any other Church that has survived intact and continues to spread over the world than the LDS Church. And this says something about what it means to have a Christian church. Why would God and Christ have a million different Churches with everyone teaching their own interpretation of the scriptures? You can nit-pick on the details of LDS doctrine but basically the LDS Church has held on to it’s basic doctrines since the beginning. Any “offshoots” of the Church are struggling to survive and are small in number. Since Martin Luther there are hundreds of different faiths that have started simply because a person or a group of people didn’t agree with the doctrine. As far as the Bible is concerned just the shear number of copies made by hundreds of different men would mean that countless errors would be made in translations. The God and Christ that I know is perfect in all things and would have a perfect system to establish Their Church on the earth. Unfortunately, They have to entrust mankind with this task of keeping their Church going and many mistakes have been made. But the system itself is perfect and has to be or else you will have contentions and disagreements and the Church will fall apart. This is what happened with the Christian Churches. God has given people the right to chose how to worship Him as they see fit as long as it does not create contentions and arguements with other people. This is not Christ-like behavior. LDS members at times have behaved in un-Christ like behaviors and they have paid the price for it. I know some people believe that there is a grand conspiracy to cover-up any information that may go against them and they have changed their history to make themselves look better. The only thing I can say about this is look at their works. What is the Church doing that is Christ-like? We have given aid to anyone in the world that needs it. We have no paid ministers and the Church is ran on tithing and offerings. The prophet and the apostles have been welcomed in almost every country in the world irregardless of faith. The LDS Church have never as far as I know held public protests against another church. We focus on teaching the Gospel Of Christ, on the family and on service. Twice a year we hold a world wide conference and is the largest public broadcast ever. New branches and wards are created all over the world. No matter what ward or branch you attend anywhere in the world the same lessons are taught. What other church can make these claims? If what we teach is so wrong why would God allow such growth and development to happen? Satan is a destroyer of men’s faith in God so I highly doubt he would allow such growth to happen. Believe what you want but I will chose to believe in the LDS Church.

  10. uft36 Post author

    One more thing. Why wouldn’t Joseph Smith constantly attack the Christians in his sermons? Since the day he ask a minister a few questions on the Christian faith he was hounded and his family’s life was continuously threatened by so-called Christians who refused to accept what he believed in even if they didn’t agree with his beliefs. LDS members were constantly threatened with their lives in a land of “religious freedom”. Why would someone who just decided one day to create a new faith would risk his life to defend it? As much as he and other members went through and it is documented in non-LDS history this faith should have died out almost from the beginning. There must have been something worthwhile in this new faith that members were willing to go through all the trouble to defend it. I do not know of any other faith since Martin Luther that has gone through this as the LDS Church.

  11. brooksrobinson

    Why would God allow the Jehovah’s Witnesses to prosper? Or Islam? Or Buddhism and Hinduism, wether a religion is of God or not is not based on numbers,if this were the case the Jews were false because they were a miniority in ancient times. Apparently you haven’t studied the history of the Bible,to say that it was manipulated by men, this is the arguement that those who do not believe in God say. It is more complete then any other book of antiquity. We can construct the entire New Testament from the writings of the Church fathers alone, thus proving what we have now, is what they had in the first 200yrs of the church. We have manuscripts from the Bible dating back as far as 700BC and we have writings from other civilizations that support Biblical events. What can be said of the Book of Mormon? Nothing, there is not one pre-1830 copy of this book. So how do we know what Joseph Smith copied is right? There are no original tablets to reference, there is no historical evidence to support the claims of that book, and there is no writings from Natives to support anything from the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon since its completion has as many editions as the Bible has original language groupings. Not only that but there are nearly 4000 changes,not including grammar errors, to the book over the course of its 6 editions, odd for a book that was so “carefully translated.” The completed Christian Bible has only a Latin,and English edition, the multiple English editions are retranslated from the original KJV as the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew grew after the 1600’s, they have many English editions to fit peoples ability to understand. For instance the NKJ, ESV,ASV are based off the improvements of translating Greek and Hebrew, and thus worded similar to KJV, but in a more modern English setting. Where as the NIV keeps the origial language, but makes it easier for the average person to read, and the Message edition is completely written in modern language, for those who want something written as if written today. The major editions of the Jewish Bible(Old Testament)are in 3 languages, Hebrew, Greek, and English. As far as the original copies are concerned theres only Hebrew and Greek, with a small section of Aramaic(found in various parts of Daniel)which is from the same language base of Hebrew. Which means the original Bible was written primarily in three different languages. Apparently your lack of understanding on the importance of source documents is little so let me help. The more copies of copies of copies that are dated to within the first 100yrs or so of the original, as well as multiple locations, such as Egypt, Ethiopia, Turkey that say the same thing, despite being written in different languages, the more reliable that document you posses is, in this case the Bible. Christianity as the true church of Christ, has been attacked by Satan continuiously, this is why so called Christians instigated wars against other faiths, and did many things not of God. However these wars were not Biblically based wars, and neither was the Church of that time period. This is why God gave Martin Luther and the other reformists the inspiration to challenge such beliefs. As far as differences amongst the Protestant church’s? The majority of them can trace their roots back to Reform movements that happened at various times of the Reformation and thus had no contact with each other to organize one main church. If you study the doctrinal differences between the majority of Protestant evangelicals you will see very little differences if any at all. The message however is the same and that is Jesus Christ is God and our savior, not some god who holds and office known as the Godhead who is a seperate god from God the Father as the Mormon doctrine believes.

  12. uft36 Post author

    Thank you for the history lesson. Now I ask you this. Was there any historical documents before the 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls to authenticate the Books of the Bible? Was there any form of dating before science discovered carbon 14 as a way to accurately date artifacts and documents? Up until these discoveries, dating of any artifacts and documents was only guesswork. How long did it take to find other documents in surrounding countries to support the Biblical accounts? Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Dead Sea scrolls were the first discovery made that even comes close to being connected with the Bible and it’s taken over 50 years to piece everything together and translated. It’s taken over 200 years of Biblical study and searching for artifacts to show the books of the Bible are real and it continues today. Even among the Christian scholars there are debates over artifacts and discoveries proposing that a certain item is genuine or not. So, no, I won’t accept copies of copies of copies as actual proof that the events in the Bible actually happen. This only comes from my faith in God. As far as documents before 1830 to show that the Book of Mormon is based on real events, we only have Native American legends that have been handed down from generation to generation of their ancestors coming from across the big waters. Unless of course they were lying to the white man just to mislead them. The Muscogee have a legend where they talk about their people coming from the Isthmus of Darien area. Now, I wonder where they got this idea from? You can read it here.
    You can debate over how Joseph Smith got these ideas from but where did the tribes get this from? If I had the original book and scanned in I can show you the original page I would. Here is a non-Mormon source on the author–
    Did Joseph Smith learn to read French also? I found a Louisiana book that mentions a group of people that came from over the great sea of the setting sun. Maybe a poor farming family in upstate New York who could barely feed themselves scraped enough money together to send Joseph Smith all over the country to gather enough information to write a book no one will accept and threaten his family’s life. Maybe all the Native American tribes and the government made a deal with Joseph Smith to write this incredible story just so that he can be tarred and feathered and chased all over the country. You wanted some documented proof of some of his claims of people arriving in the New World. One more thing. How was he able to accurately date the fall of Jerusalem to within a few years before the dating of artifacts and history became a science? Just a lucky guess? And where did he get the idea that Native Americans used metal coins and smelted iron in 1830? If you read my post on an iron mine that was recently found this year you will learn that it was the first iron ore mine found in the New World. And archaeologists and historians have denied for years that Native Americans mined iron. If they can make jewelry why not other things?
    As far as Jesus as the only God and not part of a Godhead, I ask you this. Who was he praying to in the garden or asking to take this bitter cup from me? Himself? Or was it a mistranslation or inserted by an inept clerk? You don’t have to be a Mormon to realize that he was talking to His Father in Heaven. I just found this from a Catholic site.

    So, would you condemn this Church because they teach a different Christ and God than you? This sermon clearly states that God the Father and the Son are two different persons with a single purpose. Here is another non-LDS site with scriptures.
    Unless I am reading it wrong it says to me that there are 3 distinct persons in this passage. Or is Christ talking about himself and going to ask Himself being the Father also and sending Himself as a Holy Spirit?
    We can go on forever debating these topics and if you noticed I haven’t deleted any of these comments. I want these comments as a record of our conversation and to give others some things to think about before judging whether the LDS faith is right or wrong. And to know for sure just like Bible you can only ponder and pray about it.

  13. brooksrobinson

    We do have copies of the Bible from before the Dead Sea scrolls that have been discovered since those scrolls. The Dead Sea scrolls were written approx. first century AD, and 200BC. Before 1947 we had no true manuscripts of ancient Old Testament Bibles. Just the ones passed down between the Jews. We relied extensively on other ancient records of various peoples of that time period to confirm what we had was what happened. That and of course the traditions and Jewish heritage they passed down through the ages. We also had Christian Bibles, keep in mind though that only dates back to the 2nd century AD. The Dead Sea scrolls only confirmed what we had previously in our Bible,If you don’t believe me compare the KJV written in 1600’s, to an NIV or NKJV, based off the latest manuscripts. In comparing these different versions the only difference you’ll see is grammar errors(incidentally same grammar errors found in KJV are found in Book of Mormon,especially the 1830 ed., and a change in language style from the 1600 style of English to a modern style. Take note that the BoM doesn’t know which language style to keep. It struggles to keep itself between the Victorian/Elizabethan age of English and that of the Old Enlgish of the 1600’s. “As far as documents before 1830 to show that the Book of Mormon is based on real events, we only have Native American legends that have been handed down from generation to generation of their ancestors coming from across the big waters.”-Still no written down records to confirm the BoM or early copies of the BoM, or its events. If you use this “passing” down arguement for the BoM, then please stop right now on your critique of the Bible. No evidence in Native Cultures to suggest the idea of large empires existing here. I’m well aware of Native Legends of “White Men” coming to America. The most famous is the Aztec prophecy, that seemed to be fulfilled with the Spanish landings. The problem with this is, Ancient Hebrews were not “White,” and many of them today still carry this tradition(depending on how much they mingled with European Blood). They are Semite peoples descended from as the Bible clearly depicts Ur-(city in which Abraham came from), They would look similar to today’s Middle Easterners, a dark complection, and perhaps just as dark as the Natives,(you prob. wont acknowledge this since “dark” skin is a curse).The “White” men would have lived in Northern Europe/Western Europe, and in this case there is evidence to show Vikings landed in America in the 1300’sAD. Not only this but all the ruins you see of vast Native cities, were not present until the 1000ishAD-when the Spanish arrived. That source you linked me means nothing, I don’t even know what your trying to prove with that one(I read the whole thing link me with what your specifically stating). I would like to carry this over to email, I feel restricted typing from a little comment box.

  14. brooksrobinson

    Correction notice on above post: I searched the source you linked me about the Muscagee tribe. This does not shock me, as I have no issues with accpeting Native Americans being in the America’s during this time. The issue however is not Native migrations through out the America’s but Hebrews. There is no evidence of Hebrew culture being in America. There would be cultural diffusion evidence in the America’s, especially from an empire lasting roughly 1000yrs. The Greek empire, which only lasted a couple of decades(Alexanders Empire) left a lasting imprint on the ancient world, influencing many aspects of ancient life, including the Roman Empire, and the Roman Empire still influences todays world in some aspects. Not only is there no evidence, the genetic evidence is not there. The Natives are Mongloid, which means they are descendants of Eastern Asians from long ago. Hebrews are caucasion,which includes, North Africans, Europeans, Middle Eastern groups, and non-mongloid Indians.

  15. uft36 Post author

    Believe what you want. No amount of discussion or evidence will change my beliefs. If I am wrong so be it. Show me any kind of hard evidence that Jesus Christ existed and that He performed miracles. The only evidence is in the testimonies of early believers who chose to believe in what they believe and that was well after He was crucified. As far as acceptable evidence in the archaeological world that proves that a group had such ideas was the Essenes and they date before the time of Christ. Mankind has been around at least 10,000 years. Is it so impossible to believe that in that time that mankind may have figured out how to travel on the seas worldwide? This is a huge world and we are constantly revising our histories based on what we have discovered. No one is an absolute authority in ancient history. Christians have been searching for hard evidence for 200 years that the stories in the Bible actually happen. Where is your proof that Noah existed and there was a worldwide flood? Where is your proof that Moses existed and he crossed the Red Sea? Where is your proof that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist? No there may not be concrete evidence that suggests that Hebrews were here in America or any other group for that matter. All we have is the testimony of what I chose to believe is the Prophet of God same as you have only testimonies of ancient believers to testify that Christ and the Apostles existed. I will base my faith on what the Holy Spirit teaches me not based on the testimonies of ancient and modern believers.

  16. uft36 Post author

    And by the way. Getting back to my original post. I can do exactly the same thing without using the Book of Mormon just based on reports and discoveries since the Spaniards came to the New World. I never intended to set out to use these maps to prove the Book of Mormon is true or not. I am using the Book of Mormon as a guidebook in studying New World cultures and I believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account of an ancient people as witnessed to me by the Holy Spirit. Any evidence I present here only supports the possibility that the artifacts discovered is somehow connected with the Book of Mormon. Even though I am an LDS member I don’t adhere to or support F.A.R.M.S. or any other “apologetic” group trying to defend our faith based on evidence discovered. As far as I am concerned these groups have done more damage through some researcher’s sloppy research and debates. No group or member is an absolute authority on the Book of Mormon. They have plenty of research to show that the events actually happened but nothing that the archaeological or religious communities are willing to accept. Instead of trying to convince this Mormon and others why the LDS faith is so wrong concentrate on why you so strongly believe the Bible is the true word of God as witnessed by the Holy Spirit to you.

  17. brooksrobinson

    Its interesting that you attack the Bible with such a fire of that of an Atheist… Why is that? It was to my understanding that Mormons used the Bible. For a religion that supposedly claims the Bible as a main book source, its sad to see that they do not teach you the historical evidences of the Bible. Perhaps you should look at my entries under “Jesus Image of the Invisible God.” There I have posted a entry on the large amount of sources outside Christianity that confirm the events of the Gospels. In case your wondering your words against the Bible is one of the many reasons why Christians do not hold Mormonism as true Christianity. Email me at spectrert1 at hotmail dot com, for a down in the nitty gritty discussion of Christ, the Bible, or whatever you’d like. The comment box here is really restricting.
    PS- I hope theres no hard feelings, I do not have any towards you and feel this exercises the mind.

  18. uft36 Post author

    Just for the record for others who reads these comments, I am not claiming that the Bible is not the inspiration of God or that what it teaches is from God. What I have been trying to say is that the only way to know if what you are reading is true or not or if it is the inspiration of God is to ponder, pray, and ask God if what you read is correct. Read the Book of Hebrews if you want scripture references. Only the Holy Spirit can witness the divinity of Jesus Christ. You cannot use artifacts or ancient texts to prove that Jesus Christ did miracles and was resurrected from the grave. Yes, the texts does say that a man called Jesus existed and is a real person. But how do you know that what He did was real? Maybe it was all fabricated? Unless you were there to witness it yourself you can only pray about it and receive an answer. I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the Saviour of Mankind. I have no doubt in my mind that the ancient prophets of the Bible were real people and what they experienced is real. How do I know? I prayed about it and received an answer. And yes, I have read and studied the history of Christianity on my own and not from college professors. The LDS Church will not waste time teaching missionaries and members the whole history of Christianity. Just enough so that we can get a better understanding of why we believe this is the true Church on the earth. The LDS Church leaves it up to individual members to study, if they are interested, the history of Christianity and leaves it up to the member to establish what and how to believe in Jesus Christ and in God. Every member has their own experiences to show why they chose to believe in the LDS Church and for the most part we are unified in our main doctrines. Everyone has their own level of understanding of what is being taught in the Church and this is where you will get different opinions on certain points of the doctrine. The missionaries main focus is to introduce to people the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrines of the Church and leaves it up to the individual to decide on whether to believe in it or not. Sometimes you will get an over zealous missionary who is trying to push his faith on others but God deals with these missionaries in His own way and it does not mean that what they teach is not correct. Everything that I talk about is what I have learned on my own and does not necessarily reflect the Church’s position on certain points on the doctrine. I simply chose to believe and accept what I have learned based on my experiences and understanding and I continue to learn and grow in my knowledge and faith in God.

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